Who is Driving the Bus?

Delegation without structure is not empowerment, it’s abandonment with better PR. Portia and Jabu explore the critical issues of leadership and organizational health. They discuss how poor management practices, lack of emotional intelligence, and weak governance can undermine company success and how leaders can transform their approach for better results.

Referenced in episode: Pivot Episode 723: ‘60 Minutes’ Meltdown, Trump’s Intel Chief Pick, and Apple’s Next Big Bet

Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.

Portia Mount on LinkedIn

Jabu Dayton on LinkedIn

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Transcript

Who Is Driving The Bus

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey Jabs, great to be back with you today.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hey, Portia. So nice to be here with you today. So, what are we talking about today? Today we're talking about who is driving the bus. Oh my God. One of my favorite topics. Um, but I think something that both you and I have observed in various clients and companies that we've worked with. And I would say the subtitle is Delegation Without Structure is not empowerment. It's abandonment with better Abandonment, people.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

We are going to get into it. Oh, I've been waiting, we've been waiting a long time to talk about this one, haven't we?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

We have. And uh I think what's interesting is is it really does seem to be a trend that we're seeing. This is not a one-off. This isn't a client here or there. Um and it's probably been this way, I would for me at at least for the last three years, I've kind of been observing this type of behavior. Um so I think we should get into the nitty-gritty about what we're talking about. What are the behaviors that we're seeing that stand out the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Oh my gosh. Like we're okay, so because we don't have want to make a nine-hour podcast, we should probably focus on the most common ones, right? You know, it's really interesting. So, and and maybe just a little bit of a nuance, Jabu, because I know you work with a lot of startups. Yeah. I work with mid-market organizations and large nonprofits. And so I'm I think that largely what we're talking about seems to be more apparent in our startup and sort of smaller organizations. But uh, I do think um, if this applies to you, listen up, is what I guess what I would just say. Um I think one of the things that I hear the most is CEOs saying, oh, the team can team should manage itself. Yeah, I want to empower you. That part empower, that's that's to me the buzzword. I'm empowering them to do their job. Yeah. And I guess the question, so that's uh maybe before we go down into the analysis. So that's one thing I hear. What do you what do you hear? That's to me, that's a when I hear that, that's a red flag. Um, that's a red flag for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

I'm empowering them. Red flag. Um, the thing that I think that I'm seeing is that there are a lot of founders and CEOs who don't have managerial experience, have not managed teams, have not managed executive teams. Um, they are brilliant external-facing, charismatic, fundraising, you know, rock stars. But when it comes to the day-to-day work of talking to your, to your leaders, they can bring them on, but they don't take care of them once they're there. And furthermore, I don't know about you, but they actually are openly irritated and sort of they're they're getting support from somewhere that it is okay to sort of brush people to the side in favor of your own preferences, your own preferred desire not to have meetings or not to talk about things that you might not be interested in. And these are leaders of companies with this energy, right? Yeah. So as someone who's, I mean, you know, you have the employees who are internal

Empowerment Versus Abandonment

SPEAKER_01 3:40

reporting into these folks, it's a very confusing model for leadership. And it part of me wonders if it comes from this sort of philosophy around a flat organization that, you know, I've I've seen for many years in engineering, um, predominantly engineering-led companies. But there's an idea that each individual should be able to just run with whatever they're working on without making it complicated for everybody else. When in fact, it would seem obvious to me that you need to be able to connect and bond as a leadership team and get clear direction from your, from your boss.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like the the definition of leadership, or at least, you know, from the way I came up in uh leadership development is around direction, the lead it's setting direction alignment commitment. Yes. And often I feel like the CEOs we see, they have the vision. Yes. And they they oftentimes though are they struggle on the direction, the alignment piece, which is hey, are we all working in, you know, are we all focused on the right things? Yeah. And then the, and then I sometimes feel like they skip to the commitment because they're sort of like, if you're not performing, then well, you must not be committed. You must, there's something wrong with you. And in reality, they have skipped the direction and alignment piece themselves. And so the their leaders are left to guess what the right thing is. And you know what happens when you start guessing.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

When there's a gap in leadership, people will step in to try to find it, to fill it. And um, if you keep pushing them off and you don't have meetings with them, I mean, we have CEOs that are probably think of themselves as progressive and creative, and they're doing things differently than they've been done before. And I think I would be very supportive of that if it worked. It does not work. It creates an insane amount of chaos. And the truth of the matter is, you and I know that it starts at the top. You cannot blame your executive team for everything. Um, so I think if you are a leader who's experiencing a lot of issues with your executive team, one really good thing to do is to kind of look at yourself first. Look at your delegation style. Do you change your mind a lot? Is it pivoting a lot? Like, what would it be like to work for you? So some of the egoic, you know, we we tend in Western culture and traditional sort of organizational structure to put CEOs on a pedestal, founders on a pedestal. But really truly, I still love the service model, which is I'm here in service of my organization and my executive team. So, what do they need from me to remove the barriers to them being excellent in their roles? If that means I need to talk to you every day for half an hour, guess what? I am going to do that because I am committed to the success of this organization.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah, you know, I I I it it's so interesting because I think, you know, the the CEOs we've worked with over the years are amazing people, right? They are smart, they understand their customers. And I also think many of them genuinely don't enjoy the uh technical, the sort of tactical aspects of management. Um perhaps they weren't managed very well themselves, and or they feel like once you get to a certain level, I shouldn't need to, I'm not, I don't need to manage you. And what, you know, I think what you and I have seen is like, no, it's not about um managing that person. It's about how are you connecting with them? How are you removing blockers? Um and if I could point out one thing that I see that makes this situation hard is it's lonely being a CEO. You have a lot of pressures, and the bigger you are, and if you're public on top of it, it is a ton of pressure. And so you need that team locked in. One, driving the operations and watching your back and helping you see around corners. And so the thing that sort of breaks my heart is the missed opportunity that the leaders we see for really tapping into the genius of their teams, as opposed to fit looking at them as like functional leaders who who are just getting shit done or who need to get shit done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah, I I do think there is, you know, the CEOs have become sort of the kings and queens of our of our modern day society. And there's a little bit of a sense that they can't be critiqued. So if you have a board and the board is only your friends and there's no one there to suggest that a path might be not the right path, or, you know, you're really crippled by not having advice and counsel that is good. And the same is true with your executive team. If your executive team is scared to talk to you about what they believe to be true because you're gonna have an emotional reaction, or you're gonna imply that they are incompetent in some way. You know, we have people building out roadmaps without any connection to reality on the, as you, as you point out, on the tactical side of what is actually possible to accomplish. And then you have pressure from boards and investors to scale rapidly. And that is a perfect recipe for disaster or minimum getting yourself replaced by a professional CEO. I do think the interesting thing about startups is you can be a startup CEO without having been a CEO anywhere else before. You might not even have professional experience anywhere else at all. Right. So you're sitting in that seat and people are looking to you for guidance, and you may or may not have all the answers, which if you have more experience, you understand that that's normal and natural, there's nothing wrong there. But let your folks counsel you, get the guidance, get the advice, get what you need. Um, if you have a repeated experience of people quitting,

Flat Org Myths And Missing Direction

SPEAKER_01 10:30

um, these amazing leaders that you spent a lot of money to find and attract and source and then bring on board, if they're leaving, it's you.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Right. It's like it's not them, it's you. Because what what's that saying? Like people don't quit the company. They quit. They quit their leader. I and I think that's really true. And what I would say the difference in, you know, because I we we've both been in big companies and small companies. I've been in very large public companies. Um, and what I would say is, especially legacy brands tend to be much better at uh talent planning, right? They um they understand the importance of lead of of developing your people, of succession. And so it's not that those that accountability doesn't um not exist. It's just it's harder to hide in a smaller, like in a startup or a smaller company, like because they're so flat that the um the the glaring errors come to the the shit rises to the top really, really fast in a small in a small company, you know. Can can I read you something that like really struck me because it's I think I felt like it spoke to what the experience you and I both had. Um I you and I both sort of listened to Scott Gallway on an on occasion. I listened to the pivot um with Kara Swisher and um he was talking about the current administration's cabinet, but um, you know, he's a he's an investor himself, sits on a lot of the boards, and this is what he said, and it like I was it kind of shook me because it's exactly what you and I've talked about. He said, the first thing you notice on a board, and one of the things you notice with experienced board members in terms of how they so this is a this is a recent episode, and we'll link to it. In terms of how they evaluate a CEO, CEO is a lot of CEOs have had to be in a closet in a knife fight for so long to get to where they are that a lot of CEOs have a tendency to shoot talented people on their team who might be the next CEO. And you end up with a talented CEO who has a really weak infrastructure of senior managers. And one of the first tasks on a board to see if a CEO is a good CEO is how often is he bringing in, highlighting, and praising other senior managers. And if he or she were to get hit by a bus, if you're running a public company and there um and there are two or three people that could potentially be the CEO, you are not a CEO. And you see it all the time. You see these CEOs who all of a sudden start shooting talented people who are recruited away to go uh to go be the CEO of another company because it was clear they were not. Your job as a CEO is to immediately say to the most talented people, I'm going to be here three, four, eight years. And if you stick around, there's a shot you're going to be CEO. And I'm going to help you prepare to be CEO of this company or somewhere else. Do you think the CEOs we work with think that way? I mean, we're not calling anybody out, but like, do you like do you like how do you feel like the CEOs we've worked with over the years do like what percentage do you think sort of think that way?

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I think it's pretty small. I I do think the process of being an excellent founder, and maybe this is very specific to the startup model. To the startup world, yeah. Yeah, is that unless you came in with co-founders, um, the ability to share the space and the leadership space is is limited profoundly. And I think there's also like a fear that you're gonna be taken out, that by comparison, maybe you won't be able to run your own company for very long if there's somebody that they can compare you to. And I think people don't realize it's very easy to see when you're not leading and you're not managing. Um you can't hide that in any way. And and and executives, the more experienced they are, the quicker they recognize that, the less tolerance they have for it, and the more eager they are to get out of there. They'll try a c they'll try a few times, like they'll try different ways, they'll try different approaches. Maybe I just didn't say it clearly enough. But after a while, they're not interested in in continuing. You know, people have options.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

This is not talented people have a one of my former bosses used to say, talent always has options, right? Talented people always have options. Even people that aren't that talented have options. It's true. You know, they can keep moving around from place to place. Like that's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

I think, you know, CEOs are focused on the wrong things sometimes. They're so externally focused that there is no internal sort of compass, and they don't have enough advisors around them. They don't have enough um really strong board members to push back when they need to be, you know, they need some advice or redirection. And that creates a weak leader, I'm convinced of it. Um and I think just the way that we would look at a resume for anyone on an executive team, it would be appropriate to do that for a CEO. If this CEO has not worked at other companies in leadership positions, I don't know why we would think that they would be exceptional at doing it for their own company. And if that's the case, I actually don't have a problem with that. You know, I think people have different strengths and I don't believe in pushing people past their ability. But let me hire you a career CEO or a president or someone else that can come in and run the company for you so that your team and your organization doesn't suffer as a result of your lack of experience.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Do you think that as a condition of getting funding that investors should, if if they're working with a founder who has not been a CEO of like, and I don't mean like CEO of me, right? But like they haven't been an operator of a you know, of a company with like PL and staff and all that stuff. Do you think that as a condition of funding, they should be required to have at a minimum a chief operating officer or a president or or use something like that? Yeah, someone who someone who understands how to run a company, not just be the product person or the you know, the bit, not just be the vision, you know, the visionary.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

I mean, listen, people get into startup life because they want to make an impact. And, you know, for for different people, that means different things. So I hate to limit who has access to, you know, as you know, um, some of us don't have access or opportunity to have some of those C-level roles. 100%, 100%. Our own thing. Um, I've been interviewing CPO chief people officer candidates um for the last few weeks, and I am blown away by the talent that's out there. Blown away. These people have experience, so much more experience than I have in my CEO role that I'm like, that's no. And

CEO Ego And Why Leaders Quit

SPEAKER_01 17:40

and that's who I would want on my team. I don't want another. That's ridiculous. But I have CEOs that will fight me on getting a COO, but they have no operational experience. They have no proclivity or interest in looking at operations. And you can literally see the company like crumbling around them. And they're living in this sort of delusional space. And listen, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of startups that have hit it big with delusional leaders.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Like that is also not, there's no to be well, to be, and and you need a little bit of delusion to be a little bit some of these big things, right? You have to be a little bit crazy, you have to look be a little delusional to kind of do the things they're trying to do. And yeah, we don't want them to lose that, but you need the anchor of a strong. I think what we're saying is you need the anchor of a strong team. You need to hire that team, and then you need to like make them a team, lead them, and then let the let the team rip, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

No, and I've observed CEOs who turn their CFOs into yes people. And that's really problematic, right? Or their system happened.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

How does it how do how do you think that happens? Because I know I too.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

We were sharing an article the other day about how emotional intelligence has dipped really low since COVID. And I don't think we fully really understood the effects of COVID on on our psyche yet. Sure, we will eventually get there. But for now, I think there is just a general lack of compassion for other people. And we want it the way we want it, how we want it. Like I'm seeing a lot of leaders who are incredibly demanding of their teams, but they don't understand you can get someone on board, whether you keep them or not, is the measure of how good of a leader you are, and whether they feel inspired by you, whether they want to work for you. Um the minute you lose that, they're already dreaming of getting paid somewhere else. Like it's a very competitive market. And and I have leaders who are just very like, you know, oh, so what? I'll find someone else. And it's like, yeah, you're gonna spend another $80,000 looking for an executive. What about the time and the, you know, if if money isn't a concern, what about the time and how that impacts your team in the interim? There's just no sense. I think some of these bigger companies, when you come on board to them, they may give you a year to get ramped up. Like that's not life, right? Like you've got No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

You have like months of months. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

So I do think like the the long vision, like the future-looking CEO who's like, I'm building and developing this team, and they may not be perfect yet, but we're gonna get there together. That kind of energy just is really lacking lately in the leadership I see.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah. Yeah, you know, what I also wonder is, and it's interesting because you and I both have worked in industries that are led by engineers. Like they're tech, they are led by finance people and engineers, basically, or like someone who is engineer and finance. And what I wonder is, is that sort of and the people who are attracted to engineering hard sciences tend to be hardwired cognitively a different way. Do you think some of that sort of lower EQ is because they're um, you know, these are very smart, technical oriented people, but they're not necessarily people people.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

And they'd probably be offended by us saying they have a lower EQ.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Well, I I agree. I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Some of them it's just not, it's not an area they've worked on. It's not an area that they think is a priority. And some of them will be very honest and tell you I don't want to manage people. I would prefer to be an IC individual contributor. And I don't believe in structure, I don't believe in you know, hierarchy. Um, so some of that I think people are very clear on. The problem is when you're trying to run, you know, a a company. That's more than 20 people, that's going to be problematic. It just functionally, right? I always remember it's yeah. I remember a company that was 275 people engineering um led, had never had an HR person other than maybe like an HR admin. Um and they the the there were three or four founders. And during the interview, the one of the founders was interviewing me and he was complaining about how people come to the founders to make decisions. And he was like, Well, how would you solve for that? And I was like, to me, you know, I was 43 something. He's like in his late 20s, early 30s. And I was like, Well, you build an organizational structure so that people have people that make decisions that they can go to that aren't the founders. People do what's easiest for them to do. So if there's no one there, they're gonna find you and ask you your opinion, which would kind of make sense. That was not, I did not get hired there.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

That was not you're like, and I didn't work there.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

They didn't have the answer that he wanted to hear. And we ended up hiring someone more junior in HR, and very shortly thereafter, they had a lawsuit for sexual harassment. And I and I do believe the the weaker your HR person is in your company, the more of an admin they are. And you could you could say this across the board for any of these roles. But particularly, something particularly about HR, the person that is responsible for managing emotional intelligence, taking care of people, advocating for people. Keeping you from getting sued. Keeping you from getting sued. Um, if that is missing and and it always was, like I have companies that have never had an HR person, and I'm the first person. And the amount of like work that you have to do to create space for yourself, because there's always someone who thinks that they need to direct your work. And um and yet they haven't been doing it well. They don't really know, they they just are used to giving direction and delegating work to someone. So if you can build your company very early on with someone whose job it is to make sure that we're we're working, we're staying within our lines, everybody knows what their role is, everybody knows how to contribute, you will see incredible gains. But a lot of people wait, they'll hire the recruiter first and then the HR person second, or they'll assume that the recruiter can manage anything that's HR related. And that's not the truth, usually.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

So yeah, and so, you know, so you're Tucky. So this is kind of in the startup world, and I would say sort of in the mid-market world, what you would have is you'll have those functions, but they won't be strong.

Boards, Bench Strength, And Succession

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And there's typically a really there's a there's a need to top grade those roles because now you've just you've gotten PE funding and now you want to expand. And so your the, you know, the HR manager that you had doesn't have the capability, doesn't have the experience to now manage when you've expanded from one site to 30 sites, and now you've got employees in 30 states instead of two states. And so just all the challenges grow exponentially. And so the need for that strong leadership team that is that brings experience and insight and foresight. And they not only can they work together, they can advise the CEO. Like it's just, it's a it's a non-negotiable, I think, in my in my view. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah. And I'm gonna go and say something that probably is gonna piss people off. I have never seen a PE company with a strong HR leadership. They don't want it.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

The you said the PE company, the uh the companies they're they're um they're stacking. They don't, they don't, they don't want a strong R HR.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

But they don't have any value, they don't put any value on HR leadership. So then what you have, they do put value on recruiting.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

So you definitely don't put any mark any value on marketing, which is what I can tell you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

So so then you have a a company that's now being, you know, managed in essence by someone who doesn't understand the need for that or doesn't care. And so you will continue to see those situations kind of worsen because they don't have anybody on their team that does HR, other than what you might see in a financial institution, which is very administrative, very yes people, very, and again, I'm making huge generalizations here, but having worked in some of those spaces, this is what I've observed. And I do think there is just a need to get back to basics. So, your earlier question about should we require CEOs to have experience? Um, I think we should require all of these people, like, you know, before you decide to be a founder, really asking yourself, like, what do you know about managing people? Because there's incredible training that you can get out there. Like, you don't have to live siloed experience. You can pursue training. And I have worked with some incredible CEOs who are amazing people managers who their people would follow them from company to company and work for them forever. They have that much respect for them. Um, but a lot of it is because these people go after learning. They know, they might even know that they don't have a real emotional connection. And so they know that about themselves. So they go pursue learning and skill sets that they can gain on their own. So, you know, not just kind of ignoring it, but we tend to know our own, our own, you know, gaps. At least I think I do. I think you do too. Like I know what I need to work on. We've done enough assessments and enough work on ourselves to say, okay, this is not an area that I'm strong in. So how do I either learn how to be stronger or bring someone else in who is?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah, you know, and I would say that that is, I really think that's the role of the board is to start to point those things out. And again, I think, you know, if we kind of split the difference between startup world, mid-market, we're not really primarily talking about the, I mean, because the reality is in a large legacy company, the board has no tolerance for um, you know, you're talking about because they're looking at their share, they're looking at their share price, their stop, you know, every, every day. And um, the results speak for themselves. And so, and they spend a lot of time thinking about who's what's the next wave of leaders from top all the way, you know, cascading to however many businesses that company owns. Again, it's easier to that stuff gets buried a lot more easily because the large company can be a shock absorber. But in the in the smaller, in the smaller companies we work with, it comes, you know, you see it really fast. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about what we see the role, what the role of the board should be in this, because I I I definitely think, and and it's a tricky, it's a tricky balance, right? Because a board should be, in my view, usually, nose in, arms out, right? So meaning they understand what's going on in the business and they are good advisors, but they are not there to run your company. You don't actually want them to do that. So, and and so I do think, and they're fiduciaries as well. So I think that they should also be able to have candid conversations with their CEO to say, hey, listen, um, I, you know, what? I have we haven't seen any of your other leaders. Like, why are, you know, we want to see your bench. When we have a board meeting, we want you to, we want to see who's in the company. It's a good way for us to, you don't need the same three people present talking at us all the time. That's thing one. Thing two is I do think that they should want to understand um, hey, who's on the bench? How are they doing? Uh, what kind of engagement scores are you getting? Uh, you know, you as a leader yourself, and what does that look like down through the company? I would like to, I think, I think boards need to ask harder questions, I guess is what I'm saying, Jabu. I feel like they give and again, I know it's a balance, but and they don't want to be overly critical, but I think they I think they're too soft sometimes in the CEOs. That's probably gonna get me in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Well, I agree. And I think that's a downside of them being friends. If you if you if they are friends, if they are, if they if they if yeah, if they are friends, different to have. I do know some some CEOs who have their mentors are on their board. Now that's a different relationship. That is a relationship where you're used to getting guidance, but a friend, maybe not so much. And if you are giving this person a pass as they're your CEO, they're your buddy, they're your friend, then you're not letting them be the rigorous leader that they need to be. So I have seen much more, and I do think this also follows with the PE model, which is a lot of boards coming in hot and heavy, thinking they know how to manage the organization. And you could say the same thing about people in a PE company that they have not run a company themselves before. They know numbers, they have some theories, they have some philosophies, uh, but they haven't had they how many PE people do you know that have owned their own company? It's not that many. Now you might have investors and people sitting on the board that do, but even so, like if you what do you know about the company they ran other than it made now, and this is where we get into the like the whole money of it all and what's more important. Like, is it more important that it made money or that the people who worked in that company led successful, healthy, good lives? And that's where you're gonna have a push and pull, right? Between your HR and your, you know, other leaders or board members. But I would like to see board members play, you know, really get more knowledge about what governance is about on a board, get educated properly. And I want to hear less opinions and more facts. Like tell me something that I need to know if I'm your CEO. I yeah, I don't go and even as a board member, the the reason I sit on less boards right now is that I don't want to come and listen to a whole bunch of guys talking on a podcast. Yeah, like I don't want a bunch of talking and such a waste of my time. And um they think it's really interesting, but you know, I heard that story in the last board meeting. So, you know, it's just this should be less about um sort of, you know, ego and more about as you're saying, how is the company doing?

unknown 32:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

And how can we help, and but and also, and how can we help you? Like I, you know, one of one of the, you know, I've had a I've had the privilege of most of this, I've really mostly only worked for really great CEOs. And I think that's really kind of where I got my chops as a chief of staff is um working with those CEOs and those boards. And one of the things I've seen them do very masterfully is you can have, you can pick board members that um are the kind of people you want to work with and who are value added in terms of skill sets they bring.

The Cost Of Weak Operators And HR

SPEAKER_00 33:30

And though um you want, you know, like the the really good CEOs say, challenge me, challenge our thinking. Um, this is something we're working on. This is some, this is the way we're looking at it. How do you see it? And I think when I've when I have um as a chief of staff been in those meetings, like the board boards love that. They want to be asked their opinion. They don't want to sit like mushrooms listen up to listening to presentations. So some of this too is like, I think it's not that they don't know how to do this, it's that the CEO is kind of holding them at arm's length and sort of not not wanting, not wanting to get that that advice.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Well, they may they may be trying to hide that the news isn't so good. And if they can have some distance there, right, then they have a better chance of like But you can't run, but you cannot hide though.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

But but you know, truthfully, there's a lot of CEOs who don't know how to manage their boards, don't know how to run a board, don't know anything about the relationships that need to be um to be built. Um even the bonds that should be created for the people on the board, like how often they're meeting together, like are they comfortable speaking their true beliefs in front of each other? Like there's a lot of assumptions that we make that are based on a notion of sort of a Western cultural ideal ideal of what a good leader is. And that's a very A-type, loud, extroverted, in your face kind of person. Um, and it's it's a real mistake to lack diversity in terms of, you know, all of the other leaders that could be introverted or, you know, have different ways of communicating that aren't what, you know, the the extroverted person does, or maybe pulls you to the side for a conversation before the board meeting to understand in depth how you're perceiving things. You you really need to work at understanding and getting to know people more than just along one kind of spectrum of understanding, which might be your own comfort level, right? So I think we just are not challenging these CEOs enough and people are kind of coasting in these roles.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's frankly, it's very uncomfortable to challenge what's interesting is because you and I know because we we sit, you know, you as a CPO, me as a uh chief of staff, we know what these boards are saying. We also we know what their teams are saying. We know what the staff in the company are saying. And so it's like this weird open secret that nobody will talk about. And I think the um, you know, I know this term is overused, but I really see the lack of psychological safety where it's head in these situations because the CEO, and you know what? And I I want to sound because it feels like we're being really hard on CEOs. And and I I think, you know, I think we both like we know how heavy that crown is. We know how stressful it is. We we know they're they're traveling 60, 70% of the time talking to investors, trying to fundraise. We see that. And I think what we want, like what this is about is like there's so much, there's so many resources available to you if you will just get out of your way and lean into your team, lean into your board, figure out where your gaps are, be honest about that, and then use the resources around you to start saying, how do I cover those gaps? Because one person can't do it all anyway, so that we can perform as and execute as an as a company. Like I I that's the spirit in which this is coming at it. So, you know, we don't we're not just like, you know, slagging on CEOs, but it is a, but it's it's but we it's we see it so much, right? This is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

And I think fundamentally what I see just in general in the United States at any rate, and you know, we have international clients as well, there's a profound lack of emotional resilience. So you have CEOs that may or may not have a lot of compassion for their team members, but they also feel a lot of sensitivity about their own ego.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

And that creates this personality type that cannot take critical feedback or doesn't want to hear it or avoids tough conversations. And avoiding those tough conversations, whether it's, you know, hearing feedback from someone or giving feedback to someone, you can't operate. I don't believe you can operate a sound business in that way. You can't absolutely not. Absolutely not. But we are seeing leaders on the political front and we are seeing people in positions of power who on paper have made a lot of money without any of those skill sets. And what we may or may not know is who is in the companies that they are fronting that is doing that actual real work. Because my guess would be that there has to be someone there that provides enough safety for people to do their work day in, day out. There's some kind of compensation that that, you know, allows people to stay in those spaces, but we don't see that whole story. We just see these really big personalities who will say anything at any given moment, whether they think it's true or not, and never have to face kind of consequences or accountability for that. The culture is shifting in some pretty dramatic ways. I think so too. And, you know, I don't know that we can point to to DEIB, you know, fading out as being a reason, but I am seeing, I am seeing a correlation personally between uh a lack of compassion towards other people. And I don't think it's just because we were focused on DIB. I prefer not to believe that. But there is a question in my mind because I'm seeing companies that are progressive, open, and you know, people first shifting into something else.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah. And I wonder if, I mean, it it is really amazing how much just in two years uh diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging has just kind of gone away. I I would argue, and again, you and I sort of lived in different spectrums of sort of of uh company life, that a lot of it was performative anyway. And so I don't know, I don't know how uh how much we really lost, but well, I shouldn't say that. No, let me not make that crass comment because the reality is is the little gains we were making fell away when companies then became paranoid of being accused of being woke. Right. So um, and so now we're really now where are we? Now where are we? But I I what I wonder is you, so so one, because you and I work with leaders very close up, um we um they tell us things that they often may not tell their own leaders, is I think what I have observed is these individuals often have their own trauma. I and we're not gonna go into a long sort of, you know, we're not gonna try to armchair psychology psychologize people, but we bring our own history with, and that's dealing with conflict, uh being able to connect, being able to express oneself in a healthy adult way. And you can see the people, the leaders who've done that work, right? They admit, like, hey, I you know, and I've worked with a ton of especially technical leaders who would say, Portia, let me tell you, five years ago, I was a fucking asshole. You know what I mean? Like, and they're and and then they talk about those watershed moments that made them realize like, I gotta change, I gotta change the how I am. I've worked with so many of those leaders. So like you wouldn't have wanted to know me five years ago. Yeah. But if you don't have that hallelujah, if you don't have that epiphany, you're bringing all that to the, you know, into the into the role.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Absolutely. And you're modeling it. You're modeling it and you're forcing other people to deal with your issues. And, you know, it the lack of ability to repair. You know, we see CEOs who throw their executives under the bus in front of the board. Woof. Oh my gosh. Understand that when they do that, they are, you know, holding a mirror up. And the only thing that board is gonna think if they're an intelligent, experienced board, is something's wrong with this leader. Yeah. So what's happening with this person? Yeah. And that's behavior that's you can tolerate in, you know, I mean, sometimes it just feels like we're working with, but I think we have like with any contrast in the workplace or in our lives, you get to understand what you don't want by virtue of experiencing it. And so as we create with these companies, we are given the opportunity to really coach leaders on how to be a different kind of leader. How to like connecting with people and offering them real support, like real functional support that isn't performative, that is actual, like, here's what I'm gonna do to get that

Culture Shifts, Trauma, And Psychological Safety

SPEAKER_01 43:10

out of your way. Um that's what I think you and I are hoping for.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I think I think that's what we're hoping for. And I I think I can speak for us both that like we go into our engagement saying this is the kind of this is the kind of CPO I am. This is the kind of chief of staff, you know, fractional. And I've, you know, I've been really leaning into this chief of staff role because it is the place I see that is the intersection of the CEO, the leadership team, and the board, which is to me the foundation of the company. And, you know, we tell our leaders, this is how we are. If you want a yes woman, I ain't her. And sometimes we don't get hired because of it, right? Because it's like if you just want me to to co sign on whatever it is you want me to co sign on, like. I'm not doing you any favors just by telling you what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

In both roles, there are gonna be people who want yes people. Even 100% all the time. All the time. All the time. Chief of staff, I want you to be kind of like a glorified executive assistant. I just want you to do what I tell you to do.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Just do what I tell you to do. They don't know. And then I realize, like, they don't really know me, do they?

SPEAKER_01 44:23

They don't know. And they have no idea what an empowered person in that role looks like and how much they can take off your plate.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

That's that's exactly right. How much white space. You get a great CPO, you get a great chief of staff, you get a great COO. Oh my gosh. Like you like, you're like, that's what I want our CEO, like CEOs to see is like the way you can fly higher when you not only invest in hiring those people, but pulling them in as advisors, strategic advisors, right? That's to me that seems to be missing is like they hire the people. They're super good often at finding those people, but then they're sort of like treat them like, you know, whatever once they come in. But it's like, no, hire them and then make like bring them in as your cabinet. Uh and you say to them, I want you to challenge me. I want you to tell me things that I need to hear, even if I don't want to hear. Yeah. Or tell me what I don't know. What should I know that I don't know? You know.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

The beauty is we are kind of in a pivot moment, I think, as a culture and as a society. And I think this is global. Like I think we're seeing this everywhere, where we get to choose who we want to be every day. And that's true for anyone in any role, but particularly the leaders in these organizations, I think really getting forensic about who you are, who you want to be. Um, not having a different personality for your family versus your, you know, employees. Um, there should be coherence, there should be um consistency, continuity. Um you should be the same person everywhere you go. Congruence. Congruence. Yes. And so I think if you're not seeing that in yourself, if you feel like you have to like put something on when you go to work, then you have not confronted some of the fears and insecurities that you have. And that is gonna take, you know, that's gonna have a negative effect on your work. So I think it's really about digging. You know, you do amazing work with your clients around their preferences and analysis of behaviors and habits and ways of moving and being in the workspace. And I think it shows them really clearly who they are and where they are, and whether or not they're at the right stage with their company to be the person to take it forward. And I would love to hear you speak a little bit about that because if if you're not able to see your own sort of gaps, the work that you do in that chief of staff role is incredibly illuminating for that.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Yeah, you know, I I do, and I think one of the things that I love, but also what makes us work really hard is I also am trained as an executive coach, right? So I I pulled those things together. And as you know, it takes, you can't just roll up into a company and then be like, here are all the things that are wrong with you. Like I don't I wouldn't want to hear that. And that's not anything I want to do for the leaders that I, you know, that I'm privileged to serve. But, you know, the thing I I love psychometric assessments because I think sometimes pulling it out of other people's opinions and taking it to like, here's how you are showing up. What do you think this means? Right. So it's not really about, hey, here's my take on your personality. And you know, we live in a time where we love online personalities. I'm a lead, you know, I'm a Libra and I'm a I'm a TJ and you know, and I'm this, I'm an Enneagram, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not downgrading any of those, but it's really about let's talk about who you are and how how and how you show up. And then the next thing I ask them is, how well is it working for you? Yeah. And that's when they're and because then it's not about what I think. That's when they can sometimes they'll say, Well, actually, it's not working that great. Okay, well, what would you like to change? Because again, you and I know it's hard to change behavior. We're adults, we're grown-ass adults. It's hard it's hard to change learned behavior, it's especially hard to change behavior over, you know, as an adult. So, what are those things that you think are getting in the way that if you just clicked, if you just dialed it this way or you know, left or right, might make a difference for you. Well, I should I really should spend more time talking to my leaders. I I I cancel my um one of the pieces of feedback I get I hear this all the time. I cancel my one-on-ones all the time. I hear this. Do you hear you're shaking your head? Do you hear that too? I I hear it so much. My leader never wants to meet with me. They don't want to meet with me. Like I'm trying to talk to them. They don't want to meet. Yeah. Hey, could you could you have so and you know what's interesting? So we say, this is the behavior. So this is the thing that would make a difference for you. What what do you need to be able to do that? Well, I I just don't have time. I said, okay. So, you know, that so that we start, we start with those things. And then on the flip side of that, with the with the leadership team, I say, okay, listen, we know Jabu does like meetings don't spark joy for Jabu. We know that. They don't, and it's true. And actually, meetings don't spark joy for me either. And so since we know that, but also we need that time, it's your responsibility to structure that time very efficiently. Give tell her what she needs to know and and what, you know, if there's a problem, bring the solution, make it as efficient as you can, or or make it as productive as you can. That doesn't mean you come in and just be like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's that's the give and take. And you know, you know, it's it's interesting though, because, you know, I've been in, I, and by the way, I think in the work that we do, a lot of us should go to therapy. I've been doing cognitive behavior behavioral therapy for about five or six years. And I a lot of what I have learned in therapy, I'm not a therapist and I don't pretend to be one though. Let me just be clear. Let me be clear. But a lot of the tools I have learned, I use working with my leaders because it really, it, it's, it makes sense to them. And I'm not telling them, oh, this is this theory or that theory. I just use the language and some of the frameworks to help them sort of think different to think differently.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Right. And and these are really smart, intelligent people. Super like wicked smart, wicked smart. They just may not have people to frame it for them in a certain way. Um and just hearing it framed in that way clicks, and then they can move forward. I mean, I've And then they can move forward. Yeah, amazing experiences with CEOs, really pushing through

Coaching Tools, One On Ones, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 51:30

some behavioral stuff that has kept them tethered to poor performers for three or four years, you know? And uh so I think being the person that can bring that kind of aha moment and it help them get where they need to go is like one of the greatest parts about our work.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

I totally agree. I love it. It's like so it's so gratifying when you like see them cross the threshold and you're just like, yes, they did it. I think I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

So I I think a lot of CEOs don't even know people like us exist, don't even know they can have like their own team. Yeah. Just purely privately for them, um, that is not their executive team that doesn't sit on their board, right? And so you can create safe spaces for yourself as a CEO to talk about things that are really sensitive. But yeah, like your fears.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah. Like, like again, it's a, you know, like we've been saying, it is a hard job. And there's a lot of folks from the outside who lob grenades in at both the leadership team and the CEO because they think, you know, monkeys can run, the monkeys can do. And it's like, no, like you don't even know the half of what they're dealing with. And so they need that CEOs, especially, need that space where they can just be like, you know what? I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can do this anymore. Like I'm struggling. Like, like they need that space, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you, Portia. I think this is something that is so timely and it's threaded through our society, it's threaded through our workplaces, through our relationships. Um, I think there's not enough people talking about this work. I think because it is so uncomfortable, right? But um, as usual, this is a space where we can talk about anything. And um, I'm really eager to hear what our listeners think about this topic and if they've seen any correlations in their in their work.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I am, I am too. And I, you know, Jabu, I think what I I think my if I could maybe end my thoughts on a hope, which is we are there's an opportunity, I think, for a new kind of leader to emerge. Yes. And we don't have to do it the old way. You don't have to be out there on an island on your own, pretending you have all the answers and being all knowing, all seeing. Like that, those days are over. And so I'm just really eager, and I think this is why our work is so interesting, is to support those CEOs and folks coming up to become CEOs, to lead different, to be different and to think you can be compassionate, you can be people-centric, and you can still build an organization that is sustainable, enduring, and performs. Like those things are not contradictory, but it starts with understanding um, like who what kind of person do I leader do I want to be? Uh, and how do I how do I make that real? So I'm yeah, it's that's my that's my hope.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

That's my hope. Absolutely. I agree. And I think one of the things I say to my leaders sometimes is is this to your highest good? Is it to the highest good of the person you're talking to? Is it representative of your absolute highest frequency and how you're approaching this? And and that gives you a moment. And I say it to myself sometimes like, is this the best version of me that I'm bringing to this conversation? If it's not, let me take a step back and rethink this. And so it's just giving yourself some room there. And I think what you're pointing out is if you are pretending to be this perfect person, this perfect leader, you're not giving yourself room to make mistakes. You're not giving yourself room to learn from the mistakes that you make. Um, and that means you're just kind of stuck in stasis. And that means you're not growing and expanding. So as you look at your own life and the people that work with you, you know, how can you bring your best self to work? And if you're not able to do that right now, there are people like us that are out here just ready to help you navigate that and build a strategy that works for you.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Debs, as always, great to be with you and cannot wait till our next uh uh very meaty topic. Yes, definitely. Thanks, Portia. Okay, all right, until next time. Until next time. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to Ungovernable Women. Our producer is Megan King. Our social media is managed by Destiny Iker. You can find us on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok. The handles are in the show notes. Be sure to like and subscribe to the pod wherever you listen to your pods. Until then, stay ungovernable.