Ungovernable Women with Portia Mount
"Ungovernable Women" (formerly The Manifista) dives into the lives and careers of extraordinary women who have redefined success on their own terms. Each episode offers a glimpse into the journeys of trailblazing women who dare to lead audacious, purpose-driven lives and the lessons they learned along the way.
Ungovernable Women with Portia Mount
Embracing the Power of Pivots with Kalyn Johnson Chandler
Kalyn Johnson Chandler discusses the transformative moments in her career that led her from practicing law to launching a lifestyle brand and founding Effie’s Paper. Kalyn shares the risks she took, the challenges she faced, and the advice she has for other aspiring entrepreneurs. Hear Kalyn talk about balancing creativity and strategy while growing her business, and what her plans are for the future.
Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.
Books mentioned in this episode: The E-Myth by Michael Gerber and The BAP Handbook: The Official Guide to the Black American Princess by Kalyn Johnson, Tracey Lewis, Karla Lightfoot, and Ginger Wilson.
Portia Mount on LinkedIn
Tiffany Waddell Tate on LinkedIn
Effie’s Paper Website
Welcome to the Ungovernable Women pod. Today we're joined by Kaylin Johnson-Tandler, the creative force behind Effie's paper. Kaylin has transformed her passion for stylish, functional stationery into a thriving lifestyle brand that speaks to the modern, ambitious woman With a background in law and luxury goods. Kaylin made the bold move to launch her own company, named in honor of her grandmother, effie. Her journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship embodies the spirit of forging your own path and embracing the power of pivots. Kaylin's story is one of reinvention, resilience and redefining success on her own terms. Let's dive into her world of creativity, business and unapologetic ambition. Kaylin, welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 3:Kaylin, I really want to double click on the pivot. I'm curious about what the tipping point was to push you to leave law and launch a lifestyle brand. Was there a moment, a scenario or a situation that made you make that leap?
Speaker 2:There wasn't a moment, a scenario or a situation that made you make that leap. There wasn't a moment per se. I would say that I just like, unfortunately, many women, I hit the glass ceiling at the law firm and it became clear that I wasn't going to make partner, wasn't going to make partner, and so my options were to stay where I was, to lateral to another law firm and hope that I would make partner, or lateral to another law firm and go in as a partner, and I did. I started down the path of option three, got the offer and then completely freaked out and was like I don't think I want to do this. I mean, should I do this? What am I doing?
Speaker 2:And had conversations with some friends, with my then boyfriend, now husband, and a friend of mine said you've got all of these creative outlets and ideas. If you take the leap, the net will appear. And, for whatever reason, on that particular day that resonated with me and I decided to trust my gut and jump. And, as one of my besties said, you know what, if you jump and there is no net or you cannot figure it out, the law is not going anywhere. You can always go back to practicing law, and so I knew that I kind of had that in my back pocket and so I left the practice of law, I took some time off and just sat still and really just was regular for a minute, like I wasn't stressed out about having my BlackBerry and being on calls and, you know, having a vacation interrupted because something came up at work and while I was sitting still I decided I was going to start a fashion styling business for busy professionals, because that's what I had been doing, kind of as a side hustle, and so I started that when I came out of my stillness, did that for about a year, I would say.
Speaker 2:Did that for about a year, I would say. And as much as I loved fashion and style, what I quickly learned is that I did not love helping people get dressed for a living. It was very stressful because we all have body conscious issues. No matter how small or big you are, tall or short or whatever the case may be, we're all a little bit insecure, and so part of my job also became helping people feel good about themselves in their bodies, and that wasn't quite what I had signed up for. So fast forwarding. I'm in this business that I'm not quite loving. I'm in this business that I'm not quite loving, also planning my wedding working with a graphic designer in London whose printers were in India.
Speaker 2:And we were getting married around or just before monsoon season, and so she said to me look, I can get your invitations printed in India. We were doing like these special, fancy kind of Indian-like wedding invitations. She said, but the collateral you're going to have to find somebody in New York to do. And I found someone and through that experience of art directing she and her graphic design team and then working with this production guy, it was kind of like I love stationary, I've always loved stationary. Maybe this is a sign, maybe I should have a stationary company. And one thing led to another, and here we are.
Speaker 3:That's amazing I also want to name. There's nothing regular about taking a break and then launching a business. It is all very amazing to me and inspirational.
Speaker 1:There isn't.
Speaker 1:But one of the things I really love that you did, kaylin, was you know, and I think we're hearing this when we talk to other women entrepreneurs is the first thing they start isn't necessarily where they land, so that and so giving yourself permission to iterate, try things, say you know what, I don't really like that or that's not really, I can't make money enough money at this, or you know to your point like this is not the kind of work I want to do every day, is, I think, really revealing, and I hope people, I hope our listeners, hear that you know it's like give yourself permission to try things out and see if it works, see how it, see how the shoe fits, uh, and then go from there, um, and so I I want to dig in a little bit more.
Speaker 1:So you launch effie's paper just talk about the inspiration for naming it after your grandmother and kind of just the, because you've gone in a really interesting trajectory too with the company, now starting with stationary and now into, like so many other lifestyle kind of um, home accents, apparel, etc we've, we've, um, we've done a lot of pivots and um, you know, you got to kind of just roll with the punches.
Speaker 2:So I named the company when I, when I had my aha moment, I was literally sitting at my desk writing thank you notes and I had my personal stationery, I had wedding stationery and then I had been gifted a lot of stationery for an organization I had just become a member of and the only stationery that I loved was my wedding stationery that I had helped to, art direct.
Speaker 2:And I just kind of looked up, had my aha moment and the name Effie's Paper came to me.
Speaker 2:And the reason incorporating my grandmother was important to me is because my grandmother fostered my love of paper and stationery, handwritten notes, everything kind of in the realm of what it is that I'm doing now. She worked for a greeting card company when my sister and I were little and we had a cabinet in my grandparents' family room filled with greeting cards and stationery and wrapping paper. And you know, when you're little you don't know, you assume that everybody is living and doing the things in the exact same way that you and your family are. So I didn't know that that was special, or I just didn't know that other people didn't have a stationary cabinet, you know, and we practiced our penmanship and I had pen pals that I wrote to all over the world and I had my friends in Jack and Jill that I wrote to. So that was just sort of my norm and when I thought I should have a stationery company it just seemed natural to name it after my grandmother.
Speaker 1:I love that. I want to just maybe pivot to another question, which is your customer who is the Effie's paper customer?
Speaker 2:My target is someone who's pretty much like myself. When I started the company, part of what pushed me was that I wasn't finding paper products that spoke to me and I felt like, if I was, if I felt that way, there had to be other people out there feeling the same way. I wanted something that had a little bit more edge, perhaps a little bit more color. There was a lot of pastel, a little bit more motivation, and so my target is really someone who is looking for something that's outside of the norm, if you will. You know she's anywhere between 25 and probably 55.
Speaker 2:She's a coffee drinker, she's a letter writer, she's a note taker, she's really good at making a to-do list and ticking off the box. You know she's someone who's got some discretionary income and is okay treating herself. You know we all spend our money in the way that works best for us. My girl is okay spending $24 for a notebook because that makes her feel good, and when she pulls it out at her meeting and it says Black Girl Magic on it and she's seated at a conference table with all white people and you know nine times out of 10 white men she's got that motivation there. She's got her girl gang. You know kind of cheering her through and you know any slights or perceived slights that happen in the meeting or just if she needs a boost of confidence.
Speaker 2:That notebook, just looking at that cover, is a reminder for her to stand her ground, state her worth and move forward in this world that she's is a part of for the time being.
Speaker 3:I feel like you've been following me around in my workday as you describe this ideal girl.
Speaker 2:Because I used to be you in your workday.
Speaker 3:And I may or may not wear my HVIC socks on certain Zoom calls, just so you know.
Speaker 2:Exactly that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:So, Kaylin, I'm really curious For many of our listeners who are aspiring entrepreneurs. They are either about to launch something new or they are newly minted in this space. What is a piece of advice you would have given yourself when you were first starting out, if you could do it over again?
Speaker 2:There's so many. I'm going to hone in on two, I think. The first is you just don't know what you don't know and you have to give yourself grace to grow into the role of being an entrepreneur. You know, when I first started out, I was really uncomfortable calling myself a CEO. I don't know why. I just didn't feel right. I don't know it, just that was hard for me. So you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2:And coupled with that is if I had to, if I were able to start all over again, I think one of the things I would do early on is invest in a credible coach, mentor, accountability partner, someone who has already done what it is that I was hoping to do and who could kind of hold my hand and help me navigate and help me avoid some of the pitfalls that I've fallen into. You know, just because you're building the plane as it's flying oftentimes. You're building the plane as it's flying oftentimes and what I now know is that that is one way to do it, but you do not have to do it that way.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 1:Kaylin, you talk about pitfalls and you know. One of the things we know is that the lifestyle, the industry that you're in, is super competitive, not when you started like. You've been in business now for about a decade a little bit more than a decade and there were even fewer black creatives such as yourself. Now. You probably helped inspire many, many more coming up. But I'm just curious, as you think about some of those challenges, especially relevant to just even your startup mode, are there challenges that were unique to you as a Black entrepreneur in this lifestyle industry or just, you know, even not necessarily as a Black entrepreneur, but just in general breaking into this particular industry?
Speaker 2:You know yes. Short answer yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What are those that stand out? I guess maybe the ones that stand out for you stand out for you most.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say stationery, the paper industry has historically been dominated by white women and up until very recently there have not been folks who look like us making you know in the decision-making position or in the maker position. And so a great way to illustrate what I was up against when I first started is I did a trade show, one of the popular trade shows. It was called the National Stationery Show. It doesn't exist anymore. It's folded into something else. And I remember having conversations with other business friends who were also contemplating doing trade shows in different lanes, you know, about whether or not we should hire white salespeople. So that was kind of the first splash Actually doing the National Stationery Show.
Speaker 2:And I had one of the young ladies who was working with me at the time in the booth with me. She happened to be white and, you know, maybe was all of 20 or 21. I think she was still in college at the time. A white woman came up to the booth, beeline to her and started asking her questions about the brand and she looked at the lady like the lady was crazy and she said you should probably talk to my boss that's her right there. And the lady was so embarrassed that she just scurried off, and that's not the only time that happened at that trade show or other trade shows. So I think it's different today because there are many more women of color in the space. I think there are even a few of us who are in some decision-making positions, and the world is very different post-2020, summer of 2020, than it was prior to 2020. So, yeah, it's been a very interesting ride 2020 than it was prior to 2020.
Speaker 3:Excuse me, so, yeah, it's been a very interesting ride. Caitlin, I know I'm just meeting you today, but it sounds like you carry both sides of your brain all the time Hyper creative, hyper methodical and strategic right, and it's the perfect pairing for being a kick-ass entrepreneur. Methodical and strategic right, and it's the perfect pairing for being a kick-ass entrepreneur. I'm curious to know if those modes are ever in conflict. When you're working and building or designing or dreaming Like, what does that tension feel like and how do you manage it?
Speaker 2:Some days I do better than others. It's hard. I mean, as the business has grown, I've had to dedicate more time and energy to the running of the business versus doing the creative stuff, which is, quite frankly, what I really love, and it feels like it's a constant conflict. What I try to do is set aside at least one day a week for creativity, whether that's ideation, whether that's even just like creating graphics for our newsletter, just the things that I really enjoy doing. I also do a lot of work with other small businesses large businesses as well where I'm creating product or concepts for them, as they are trying to figure out what kinds of products they're going to offer and sell, and it really, at this point, requires me to be strategic with my calendar, and so what I've learned to do is set aside days, like I try to have a day for calls, I try to have a day for creativity, I try to have a day where I'm really available to my staff because I know that they can.
Speaker 2:My mantra usually is do what it is you can so that they help them, help you. You know, if somebody is saying, hey, can you review this or, you know, can we talk this week about X, y, z. If I don't review, if I don't make time, then they can't do whatever it is they need to be doing to help move the bus forward. So the days don't always go as I had planned and I don't always get the things done that need to get done. And I would say, quite frankly, probably the thing that takes the backseat is the creativity, and I would say quite frankly, probably the thing that takes the backseat is the creativity.
Speaker 2:That's probably one of the worst things I think about entrepreneurship is some of the things that inspired you to jump in, are the things that you have to really fight for as you keep going and growing. Yes, and that's one of those things nobody tells you. And and I don't you know the thing is when you, when you start off and you're so fresh and you're so excited, people tell you lots of things. So I it's not fair to say that's one of those things nobody tells you. Somebody may have mentioned that to me, or more than one person may have mentioned it to me. I don't think I could hear it or receive it in the way that they were hoping. Yeah, it's just par for the course. It's part of the territory.
Speaker 1:Effie's Paper started out as a product-based company. You started with paper goods. You've evolved way beyond that and this question is about risk and scale and like how do you know what to bet on in terms of thinking about just expanding your product line, the kind of products like I wonder. If you just talk, you know there's a lot of. We have a lot of listeners who, I think, really look at people like you and think I, I want to like it looks so easy, you make it look so easy, you're coming out with new products all the time, but how are you deciding what to bring to your customers and just talk about the risk and maybe talk about a big risk you took that didn't pan out and how you handled it?
Speaker 2:Okay risk you took that didn't pan out and how you handled it, okay, you know, I think one of the things what happened to me that kind of pushed me into the product space a little bit sooner than I was ready for, quite frankly is my website got hacked and I had to take a step back and, you know, hire somebody to fix it.
Speaker 2:And I was getting ready to go on vacation and was like you know what? I'm just going to stop everything for a couple of months and come back fresh. And I named the company intentionally because I had always planned to have whatnots. So, as I was taking this step back, I really started to think about what are the things that I use and enjoy on a daily basis Coffee I'm a coffee drinker, so coffee mugs I'm the person who gets to Target and that dollar aisle is exciting to me Me too and it's like, oh, this is a cute keychain and look at that notepad and look at this. And it's like, oh, this is a cute key chain and look at that notepad and look at this that aisle is my downfall.
Speaker 1:That aisle in Target when you walk in is my complete and utter downfall. Every time, Every time.
Speaker 2:So you feel me. And so I just started to think about the things that bring me joy and I find exciting that don't break the bank as well, but give you that little lift me up of, oh, I'm going to treat myself, I'm going to do this. So that's really how we started. Adding new products in. Notebooks were, I think, the first deviation from just straight stationary, which made sense, and then notepads, and then we did post-it notes stationery, which made sense, and then notepads, and then we did post-it notes and then, like I said, I really like coffee and so we added in ceramic mugs.
Speaker 2:I'm a New Yorker, I'm running around a lot and I thought, well, why should I be running around with this cardboard cup when I could have a reusable mug that looks like one, I would want to carry cup. When I could have a reusable mug that looks like one, I would want to carry. And if I want to carry it, presumably my customers are going to want to have something very similar. And so it's definitely trial and error and you know, even within categories. So you know.
Speaker 2:A question about what's something that didn't go as well as you had hoped With respect to our travel mugs, our Black Girl Magic and our Futurist Female mug like fly off the shelves. People love those. I had this mug in my head. I wanted the body to be pink with metallic gold stars on it. I don't know why. That's just what I had in my head and you know, when I saw, when I saw the prototype, it was exactly what I wanted. I was super excited we brought it in and it just hasn't done as well. I don't know why. You know it is what it is and they're lessons you learn. I mean, I wish I'm sure there is a formula. I don't have the formula. I go a lot on my gut and what makes me feel good, like it?
Speaker 2:Our tagline when we were just stationary was a stationary that makes your heart leap and that's still something I really follow, Like when I see prototypes from my manufacturers. If I get that like this is it, then I'm pretty certain it's going to work. Or when I'm designing on the computer screen and I, you know I see the finished product, I know immediately this is it or yeah, no, I got to start over, so it's definitely. I've definitely gone with my gut. You know, if I were to take a step back and think about it. I don't know that I would have diversified as much as we have.
Speaker 2:Some of it, you know, was because it was COVID and the world was shut down, so it became really easy to manufacture t-shirts and sweatshirts and not so easy to get notebooks and notepads manufactured. So, you know, will I take out the apparel? Probably not just because that's a very easy lift for us, but are there some product categories that we're probably, once we sell through, we're not going to bring back? Yes, because oftentimes in these scenarios what happens is people get decision paralysis. There's so much to choose from that they can't choose, and so I know that happens at in-person events, and we've gotten really good about curating what we're bringing, thinking about who the audience of the event is going to be, what we're going to bring, what we're going to upsell. That's a lot easier to do in person than it is online, and so part of what's going to happen online is we're just going to call.
Speaker 3:Who are these people that have difficulty making decisions in their online cart? That doesn't happen to me. I'm just like I want that and that and I'm going to put it in my cart.
Speaker 1:I'm just putting it all in my cart.
Speaker 2:I'm going to put it all in my cart and just buy it. You ladies are my favorite kind of customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're just like it's pretty, I need this. I need this. I'll text her, I'll be like I need this.
Speaker 3:She'll be like I need this. She'll be like no, you don't. I'll be like, but I'm getting it. Well, kaelin, when you think about the future of Effie's paper and continuing to push the needle and expand, are there ways that you hope to inspire future women in this space or in the entrepreneurial space more broadly?
Speaker 2:Yes, actually. I mean, one of the things that really has kind of hit home in the past probably four to six months is that I have garnered a lot of information about being an entrepreneur, about starting a product-based business, and I've been fortunate in that I've, over the course of time, met a lot of female business owners who are trying to navigate and figure out how to make this whole entrepreneurial world work for them, and I think it's different for all of us, right? So one of the things that I am doing now is I am doing one-on-one coaching with some of the women that I've met along the way, because there's just no reason to recreate the wheel, and I've got this knowledge and information and it's exciting to share it with someone and see the light bulb go off and see them. I was having a conversation with one of my clients yesterday who switched. She has a subscription company. She switched platforms and lost about half of her customers, and so we were chatting about, you know, getting this customer base back up, and so I said to her well, for the people who didn't renew when you got to this new platform, have you reached out to them?
Speaker 2:She said, well, I sent an email and I said that's it. And she said, well, got to figure out how to do that. And I said, at a minimum you've got at least call three of them to find out. You know, do they miss your subscription box? And had you made it seamless for them to be into your new platform, would they have stayed with you and perhaps give them a special discount for like the first three months or something that they get back in with you? And I just saw, you know, the light bulbs go off, like, oh my God, I could do that. I didn't even think about it and I think we get so in our heads that we can't see the forest for the trees, and so it was great to see the light bulbs go off for her in a way that she saw a way forward versus feeling continuing to feel stuck. I was like you have, you have customers, you just got to go back after them.
Speaker 1:What I love too, kaylin, is like, especially over this, you know, decade plus of being a, you know, a business owner, a CEO is now it probably feels very natural to you. And but when you're newer in that continuum, being an entrepreneur, I know I am, and there are things where I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so hard. And then I go and talk to a mentor, they're like, no, just do this, this and this. And you're like, oh, yeah, I can do that, I can do that, can I? Right, like you know I should do that Right. Well, yeah, you should if you want to get paid.
Speaker 1:But I think what I love is that what I hear is that you started the business really just kind of organically with this paper-based, with paper products, expanded. Now you're moving into services. Now you're it's what I'm hearing you say you're moving into this consulting services for people who are running, um, you know, online-based product companies, and so I I'm curious if you, as you look full circle back to where you, when you are you surprised, like you started as a corporate attorney, and I want our listeners to hear this like, because we often think that where we start is where we we're stuck. We're stuck in a path, um and that. But you've proven, and what you did in terms of especially iterating your journey, that where you start absolutely doesn't have to be where you end. And so I'm just curious like are you look back, are you surprised, are you just like what's the feeling there?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm in shock. You know again, you just don't know. I mean, I didn't come from a family of entrepreneurs. You know, I grew up in the very you become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher, like this is what we do. So it didn't occur to me that I wasn't going to be a lawyer for my whole life or I wasn't going to be in the law policy world in some way, shape or form. I could have never envisioned any of this because it just it didn't exist in my realm.
Speaker 2:I think it's a little bit different today, because we do have the internet and you can see that there are people doing all kinds of things you know, many of whom are keeping their their their main job, if you will and are entrepreneurial on the side, and sometimes that entrepreneurial pursuit ends up becoming the full thing. Sometimes people are able to straddle the fence, but when I was coming up you you couldn't see beyond the people who were in front of you or the people who were around you. So you know, had I had the benefit of what today's young people have the benefit of, I think I would be some kind of logistics person. Like, I went to see Beyonce last summer and I was fascinated by the set.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the fact that they have three of those sets and they travel and there is somebody whose job is to break down, set up. You know that all of that I wanted to dive into. I wanted to know, I wanted to learn everything I could. All of that I wanted to dive into. I wanted to know, I wanted to learn everything I could about the logistics behind the show. You know how she came up with the idea, how it was brought to life and then how it's moved from place to place. And, quite frankly, the first time I saw Cirque du Soleil I saw the water show. Or, oh, in Vegas, at halftime. At halftime it's college football season, but at intermission. At intermission, I had to leave the theater, go to the bookstore next door and buy a book, because I needed to understand how they had this water tank under this theater and how these people were diving. You know, like 30 feet up.
Speaker 1:How are they doing this?
Speaker 2:Had I seen these sorts of things growing up, that's probably what I would have done.
Speaker 3:That's incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, kaylin, this is the segment of the show that I might be a little biased, but it is my favorite. We love to ask guests a few lightning round questions. The only rule is that we don't want you to overthink it. We just want you to share the first thing that comes to mind. Okay, and we'll just ask a few. So we have recently rebranded the pie to ungovernable women. What does being ungovernable mean to you?
Speaker 2:Well, do you want my real answer or my PC? No, let's go with it. No, this is lightning round.
Speaker 1:We want the real answer, we want the real answer.
Speaker 2:We're in a very hot political climate right now, but what I immediately thought of is get your hands off my body. So that's in this moment, today, that's what ungovernable feels like to me.
Speaker 1:So, kaylin, you are like one of my shopping guru heroines, I think. I always think like if kaylin's wearing it, it means people will be wearing it like in the next year and a half or so, because you're kind of far out, you're. You tend to be ahead of the trend. But I'm curious, um, and I what I also love about your sense of style is you have really good high-low sense of style as well. You buy high, but you also buy like kind of you know like you'll buy the Zara as well, best purchase that you've made recently under $150?.
Speaker 1:Well, these glasses, oh, those are very cute. They're very cute. Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you, but clothing-wise.
Speaker 2:Or gadget it could be a gadget too. Okay, the best gadget I have purchased under. I think it might've cost $20. I'm going to see if I can show this to you. I'm totally messing things up. Is this phone stand? Oh yeah, hands down. The best purchase I made during COVID. Oh, I do not leave home without it. It's always in my tote or my backpack or my suitcase, because that way I can work on my computer and I have my phone right there as well. That is definitely one of my best, best purchases.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:What is a secret? Unpopular opinion that you hold?
Speaker 2:I love this question are young people and I'm dating myself a bit but that anyone under 30, particularly African-American men and women, who are unsure about who to vote for or whether or not their vote counts, needs to get their shit together. Excuse my language, I'm just tired. I am tired of well, you know, I just really don't know how I feel, and or well, I just. I mean, it's not really clear to me that my vote counts. Then you know what? Go back to your civics class and read the assignment you did not read. We live in a democracy. Hopefully we will be in that democracy.
Speaker 1:Hopefully.
Speaker 2:Come December 2024. But if you're dumb behind, don't do your job. We might not. Actual and factual. Yes, actual and factual.
Speaker 3:You know what I love it's like Tiffany.
Speaker 1:I love how people go on a tear with this question. When we ask, like we're all people, it's like I don't know if I should say this and then they just start like, wow, people, really I love this question. Can people totally unload? And you know, I think this and this is the time. Is there, um, is there a gift? Kay Kaylin, you are a fabulous gift giver, I happen to know this, but is there a gift that you find yourself a book, especially that you find yourself gifting constantly or recommending constantly?
Speaker 2:There is. There is, I think every new business owner or person, any people contemplating starting a business, should read a book called the E-Myth by Eric Gerber. It is a relatively short book but it breaks down into bite-sized chunks. Excuse me, what entrepreneurship is, and particularly for those starting out. He's very clear. Like you're going to have to do all of the things. I don't care what you read, I don't care what you see.
Speaker 2:When you start a business, you are going to do all of the things, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because in doing all of the things, you will learn how you want things done in your company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that when you are in a position to hire someone to do those things, you can tell them how to do it. You know about how much time it should take. You can tell them how to do it. You know about how much time it should take. And if you write all of this down as you are building things out, you then have a manual that you can hand to them. It can become a living document that they can embellish, but it's also something they can open, go to, so that they're not always coming to you asking questions Because the reason you brought somebody in is to free your time up. Your time is not freed up if you are constantly having to hold somebody's hand. So somebody recommended it to me when I started out and it helped me really begin to think about what it was going to mean to start a business and how I wanted my business to look and, ultimately, what I wanted my role in my business to be.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:So good. I love to talk to entrepreneurs about the myth of just hire someone to do all those things. No, you need to be cashflow positive, so you're going to work really hard.
Speaker 2:Number one number one number one.
Speaker 1:We want to be cashflow positive.
Speaker 3:Yes, Kaylin thank you so much for joining us on the pod today. It has been delightful getting to know you, learning more about your story and also learning a little bit more about your unpopular opinions.
Speaker 1:And Kaylin before we go. I have this. I was looking on my bookshelf and I got this little. I got this little blast from the past. If for those who are only listening and not watching, kaylin is co-author of the BAP handbook, the Official Guide to the Black American Princess. This became a total cult book, and so I just and you know, you published it in 2000, maybe 2001,. Somewhere around 2001. And so I am curious are we going to, before you leave us like, just don't leave us hanging is there going to be some kind of revision to the BAP handbook or any, or is it going to be optioned for a movie at any point? Just curious, if, if we can see, or if we might see another, a different book from you.
Speaker 2:Well, with respect to the BAP handbook, we we've had some conversations, we'll see. You know, nothing is over until it's over, so let's put that out, let's put that out to the universe and see what happens.
Speaker 1:Let's see, okay, good deal.
Speaker 2:And I don't know. You might see the grown-up version of the BAP handbook and hopefully you will also see some kind of book from me as well. I don't know what exactly it'll be, but I'm putting that out there and hoping that by 2026, it'll be moving forward.
Speaker 1:So you feel like what I'm hearing you say is you feel like you've got a book inside of you still taking shape, and so we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna keep, we're gonna keep tabs on you Because I think it'll be well and bring you back for when you want your book, and that'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna hold you to that.
Speaker 1:Caitlin Johnson Chandler, thank you so much for being with us today. It has just been a delight.
Speaker 2:Thank you, ladies, I truly appreciate it.