Ungovernable Women with Portia Mount
"Ungovernable Women" (formerly The Manifista) dives into the lives and careers of extraordinary women who have redefined success on their own terms. Each episode offers a glimpse into the journeys of trailblazing women who dare to lead audacious, purpose-driven lives and the lessons they learned along the way.
Ungovernable Women with Portia Mount
The Evolving Definition of Leadership with Julia Fabris McBride
Do you consider yourself a leader within your organization? We are joined by Juilia Fabris McBride, the Chief Learning and Development Officer of the Kansas Leadership Center, to discuss how leadership is evolving. Julia shares about her interesting career journey and how everyone can and should exercise leadership.
Have a question or comment? Email us at ungovernablewomen@gmail.com.
Portia Mount on LinkedIn
Tiffany Waddell Tate on LinkedIn
Julia Fabris McBride on LinkedIn
Kansas Leadership Center Website
Hi, I'm Portia Mount, creator and host of Ungovernable Women, formerly the Manifesta Podcast, the lifestyle and career podcast for aspiring women. Our new name reflects our mission to reach even more listeners with stories of women who are breaking boundaries and redefining success. I have a favor to ask you, if you haven't done so already, please rate and subscribe to the pod. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, it boosts our rankings and helps more people discover us. Thanks for tuning in. Welcome to Season 5 of Ungovernable Women, the career and lifestyle podcast for aspiring women ready to break barriers. I'm Portia Mouw and I'm thrilled to be back with my co-host, tiffany Waddell-Tate, ceo of Career Maven Consulting. We've got a new name, but our mission remains stronger than ever helping women find their purpose, lead high-impact careers and meaningful lives. This season will bring you the stories of women who forged their own paths to success. It's our time to shine. Let's dive in in.
Speaker 1:I'll start with this passage, chapter five. Plenty of people in important positions never exercise leadership. The world is full of bad and mediocre bosses, coaches, presidents and CEOs. Leadership position and leadership team are outdated terms from a model that no longer works. The leadership as a position model is collapsing. The world is moving too fast. The pace of change is too unforgiving. Organizations that expect people at the top to do all the leading won't thrive. At best they'll survive. And towards the end of this passage, this chapter goes on to say the traditional leadership as authority model lets the rest of us off the hook. We tell ourselves that since we aren't in charge, we aren't responsible for what's wrong. We say it's the CEO's fault or the governor's fault or the pastor's fault. We leave the creativity, risk and responsibility for change to someone else, someone higher on the org chart.
Speaker 1:This passage is from when Everyone Leads, the Toughest Challenges Get Seen and Solved. And I'm so pleased to have with us today. This is co-authored by Ed O'Malley and Julia Fabris McBride, and we're fortunate to have Julia here with us today. She's the Chief Learning and Development Officer at the Kansas Leadership Center. Julia, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Portia. Tiffany, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:We are so delighted to have you here because so many of our audience are people who would think, hey, I just, you know, I'm a middle manager. I don't. I'm not, I don't have the power, authority to lead, like what, I don't have the, I'm not on the, I don't have the pay grade, I don't have this equity, I don't have the office, and so I'm super excited to dive into this topic. So, just really quickly, the Kansas Leadership Center is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to transform civic life in Kansas and beyond, because that's how we met you. We met you in the beyond by creating a culture where everyday people exercise leadership and engage others to make progress on their toughest challenges. So I think we should just jump right into it.
Speaker 2:And I'm so glad you started with that passage. I love that passage, especially the part of it lets us off the hook.
Speaker 3:Julia, you know it's awesome to hear the context and the background of what and where you do your work, but can you tell us a little bit more about you and how you got interested in the field of leadership to begin with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started out as an actor. I went to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. Yeah, I love that Until I was 40, I defined myself first as an actor.
Speaker 3:Awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I went to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. I came back to Chicago and I worked with theater companies that ranged from one that had a mission to provoke debate about social and political issues, another one that was focused on LGBT life and issues, another one that was a physical theater, and for a while there I was earning money doing training films and doing theater at night. That was more passion driven than money driven and I loved it. It took me quite a long time to let go of that as kind of my definition of myself, but after a while I realized that I didn't love the training film stuff. It wasn't why I went into theater. Why I went into theater was storytelling and helping people to know one another, helping people to connect.
Speaker 2:So at a certain point I went to work in nonprofits and I had learned to raise money in the theater. So I took a director of development job at one organization and then another, and then I was promoted to a deputy director at Arts Alliance Illinois and it was there that we started getting curious about how do you keep good people in the field, in the non-profit arts? And we did research and I'll never forget an executive director of Chicago Arts Organization saying to me it's a job I love, but I wouldn't wish it on anybody else. She was trying to do it all and she didn't want any training was coaching on how to be more effective at balancing their own needs in life and this mission that they love, and they wanted more skills around being able to get others in the work. So that's the way I got into coaching and coaching. So leadership coaching, and then I talked my way into teaching leadership at the University of Chicago. Basically, somebody had just gotten fired and I said I can do that Right. Nonprofit management course.
Speaker 1:The acting training came in handy right.
Speaker 2:And then my crazy husband wanted to. He's a sculptor and he's inspired by the prairie, so he wanted to move to Kansas and live on the prairie and make art inspired by the prairie. So I was just in that kind of a mood and I said, yes, but we must have a baby, and so moved to Kansas and we had a baby and then the Kansas Leadership Center was formed and so here I am, my baby's now about eight months old and I'm ready to go out into the world. And I've invited to this gathering of people in Kansas who teach, coach, facilitate and consult around leadership.
Speaker 2:And I'm in a room of 150 people and Marty Linsky from Harvard is talking about leadership as an activity to mobilize people to make progress on tough, adaptive challenges. And everything fell into place. This leadership is an activity and the idea that it's about our toughest challenges. So I you know, somewhere in there I let go of Julia is an actor and I really embraced the idea that my purpose is to help people connect with their true selves, each other, earth and spirit. And I was doing that in the theater and I was doing that in coaching and now I'm doing for 15 years now here at Kansas Leadership Center.
Speaker 3:That's so powerful, and as a former theater kid in college, I appreciate how improv principles have brought you exactly where you needed to be, so thank you tiffany's heart is yes, I'm just like.
Speaker 2:Yes, that principle of say yes, be there for your partner, give them a gift, all that stuff, all of it. You can't stay on the. You're part of an improv troupe and you stay on the sidelines. You're letting everybody down and you're not having any fun absolutely.
Speaker 3:Uh, julia, can you help our listeners better understand, now that you are the chief learning and development officer at Kansas Leadership Center? What does that mean? What is your day-to-day and what does your span of impact look like?
Speaker 2:You know what? My son, who was born all those years ago, is now a senior in high school. And the other day now a senior in high school, and the other day his girlfriend was asking me about my job and I, you know, I told her well, we're, we were. I mean. The beautiful thing is, and the end of that story is, she said that sounds better than most people's jobs. And you know, it's I'm, I'm always we.
Speaker 2:We serve about 7 000 people a year and that's in companies and communities and organizations in kansas and then outside of kansas we work with government agencies and I'm doing a webinar with people in aust next week. So we have a big reach. But what those 7,000 people have in common is they want to make their community or their company better, they want to contribute more effectively and they want to grow. And so I get to interact with those people. I get to be with a team that is always trying to design the next experience to help those people learn and grow and connect, grow and connect. And I've walked into this building now for so many years.
Speaker 1:The vibe in this building, the spirit in this, building is so good because it's people who care and want to make a difference. I love that so much, julia, and what I especially love is you started as an actor and you're in this leadership role and I think so many again I think about so many of our listeners are thinking like gosh, is the role I'm doing the thing I'm going to have to do for the rest of my natural life? And what if I don't know? What, if I can't foresee what I want to do? And I love the natural. It's the seemingly natural evolution of, but you're still using all those core skills that you learned as an actor, and so it's a great. It's a great sort of testimony to all of those skills and competencies you learn earlier in your career can take you into other places that you I mean I can't, I can't. You probably didn't see that you were going to be chief learning and development officer of a leadership center right, like you probably that wasn't on your bingo card, but and yet here you
Speaker 1:are, and we had the privilege of meeting you at a, at a conference here in the Southeast, so it's like it's taking you everywhere. I want to kind of pivot a little bit and ask you about just the sort of the changing nature of the sort of how we define leadership. I'm thinking about companies like Amazon are like we're getting rid of middle managers, we don't you know, like companies or organizations are getting flatter, and yet people, leaders, are being asked to do so much more, are being asked to do so much more. And so what does an evolved definition of leadership look like, if there is even such a thing? But we'd love your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what you just said about people are being asked to do so much more. First of all, an evolved definition of leadership is taking responsibility for making sure you're doing the most important thing.
Speaker 1:Ooh, say that again.
Speaker 2:You're going to have a list that's way too long. And wherever you are in a company, or if you're a volunteer, working on a city council or in a school board your job every day is to think about what's the most important thing, what's our most important challenge, and how can I engage other people to see their part of this? And whether it's affordable housing in the United States, that's a tough challenge. Or your company needs to be more innovative or more collaborative, or your team is stuck on a project that's due in a week and people are starting to get sleepy with each other. What's the most important thing that you can do to move that forward? And if you're in a position of authority and we make the distinction between leadership and authority how do you create containers where people can see their moments and seize their moments to exercise leadership?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's excellent, Julia. I'm curious when you're kind of describing this concept of a person who might be in a traditional work context or volunteer space and they see a problem, are there prerequisites that individuals need to step into that leadership role? Like what? Do you have to have to seize your moment?
Speaker 2:I think you have to know the distinction between a technical problem and an adaptive challenge. And a technical problem is it's basically clear, and it can be solved or fixed by either the right expert or somebody in authority directing that it gets done. And if it's one of those kinds of challenges, well, if you're the expert, get the resources and do it. If you need somebody else to direct it, let that person know what's happening. But if it's the other kind of challenge, an adaptive challenge, those are the challenges where there's all kinds of different perspectives and even values related to that challenge. There are no clear solutions. We need all the stakeholders, or enough of the right stakeholders in what we call the productive zone, and we need people experimenting. And I think you see that challenge and the first thing I would recommend somebody do is hey, what do you think about this situation? Or do you think our team could be working together better?
Speaker 2:Or have you noticed people aren't saying hi to each other, you know, as regularly as they used to, and that there seems to be something going on here? So you're starting to name something and you're starting to gather data. I love that.
Speaker 1:You're starting to gather data. I love that. I'm struck by as you define, as you kind of unpack the difference between the technical and the adaptive challenge that at least I can think of so many organizations I've worked for. We've diagnosed everything as a technical challenge. Let's go and get experts, let's hire more consultants, let's get a committee, let's get a committee together to diagnose the problem, have lots of meetings and then ultimately we swirl and we don't do anything about it because it's like, oh my God, it's so hard.
Speaker 2:That is rebranding, and they basically put out an RFP for a consultant to help them make sure that rebranding goes well. And she invited us in to this process because she understands that it's everybody in the company has a piece of making this shift successful. And, yeah, there might need to be some expertise brought in to actually do what people with branding expertise do, but that's not enough. There's going to be loss. There's going to be things that people held dear about the old way we did it that have to be navigated, and that's the work of leadership, it's the work of everybody.
Speaker 1:Julia, we need to later on go for drinks. So I can tell you all of my rebranding nightmares that Tiffany already knows about, because I have led many, many large-scale rebranding efforts and that is truer words have not been spoken that the easy part is changing a logo. The hard part is the hearts and minds and all of the change management that goes on behind it.
Speaker 1:So but we will not go through my trauma here during your time but I will just say that that is exactly right, and I am still I'm still trying to recover from some of the rebrandings that I have done. I'm so sorry Because, but for exactly the reason that you said right in all seriousness is that it's, it's not it's, it's. It's more than the the thing, the technical of changing a brand. It's all. It's what it means and when it, how people are invested in it, it's all the change management and so, spot on. I feel so much better.
Speaker 2:Expertise is needed, but it's not enough. Somebody in authority needs to make a decision and allocate resources, but that's not enough, but it's not enough.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. But you know I guess this is as I think about this example it also strikes me that this is an opportunity for engagement, right, like? So. We've been talking a lot, you know, there's all kinds of data out there about employee engagement and about how employee engagement is at an all-time low. I read some statistic that you know. I think probably we all look at Gallup studies that said something to the effect that only 33% of US employees are engaged, which is bonkers, and then that 50% are not engaged and 16% are actively unengaged.
Speaker 2:Right, which means they're like effectively coming in to try to destroy and disrupt Right.
Speaker 1:First of all, I was like what does actively unengaged actually mean? Right, and these are not the quiet quitters, I don't think. But the serious question is like so, like you know, as you hear those statistics, what do you hear in terms of the opportunity and the implications for this idea that everyone can lead, everyone should lead?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a huge opportunity and we have research that shows. When an organization saturates itself with people who feel empowered and equipped, yeah, to exercise leadership the way we talk about it, then those employees become more engaged, they feel more fulfilled, they view their organizations as more trustworthy and open and equitable. So, like, if I view my organization as trustworthy, open and equitable, that's I mean, that's meaningful, that gives my life meaning. If I feel like my skill asking a good question or making a provocative interpretation of what might be going on in a situation, I feel like that's valued. I don't want to go to work.
Speaker 3:Julia in the book you talk about this concept of the gap.
Speaker 2:Julia in the book you talk about, this. Conceptlc's boldest aspiration is a culture in Kansas and beyond where we can make progress on our toughest challenges and thrive. We're not there yet and in the gap you face things. The gap is like it's deep and dark because it's full of people's competing values, their disappointment that authority and expertise aren't enough. Their disappointment that quick fixes don't work and you have to experiment and engage, curious and learn. The idea that get from here to there there's going to be loss. And the idea that we're going to have to negotiate values. We can't take everything with us.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 2:The gap to me feels like the ch enough and bring other people in to look at it and think about it and brainstorm about it. Practice leadership to speak to loss, to outline the competing values and facilitate tough conversations about you know what we stand to lose and who has to give up what. Then we make progress in the gap. I mean. Think about there was hundreds of years there was a gap between women who wanted to be part of the democratic process in the United States and you know, and weren't any aspiration to be full voters president of the United States perhaps and people had to struggle in that gap for years, decades, centuries, and we made it happen. It was a big adaptive challenge and now it's tech for the most part.
Speaker 1:One of the things I really love about the book. You know there's so many leadership books on the market and one. I love it because it's beautiful, it's like, beautifully like, it's so, it's well put together. But you use a lot of metaphors, you use a lot of analogies. There's a lot of. I think it speaks to different kind of cognitive styles, I think, in terms of how it's put together, and so I was really struck by one of your sort of the paradigm for tackling challenges.
Speaker 1:It's heat, right, and I'm curious, like you know. So let's say, you're a leader who recognizes, okay, curious, like you know, so let's say you're a leader who recognizes, okay, we've got, maybe, adaptive and technical challenges that are sort of at play. I don't want to use the same old, same old way of trying to tackle a challenge, like let's put a committee together, let's have a lot of meetings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which never works. We know that. But it's what we, a lot of us, a lot of organizations, whether you're, you know, a for-profit company or a nonprofit company we default to that. Can you talk about this paradigm of and and how to, how to use it? What does it mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we talk about using the heat and and and. Heat is in discomfort. It's what happens when you stretch beyond your comfort zone. It's what happens when you elevate conflict. So we want to, if we're working on an adaptive challenge and I'll use one from ALC's history we for a long time would talk about wanting a diverse staff and teaching team and nothing changed.
Speaker 2:We were making a mostly white team for a long time and we, after over time, we realized we're going to have to put more heat on ourselves, we're going to have to get more purposeful, we're going to have to engage across the organization and we are going to have to make sure we're seeing progress.
Speaker 2:So heat, the productive zone is when you have all that, when you have a shared purpose, enough of the right people engaged, actively learning, and you're making progress. So heat was. I mean, one of the things we did to elevate the heat was set goals, and particularly set goals about how many people of color were going to be in our recruiting pool, you know. So setting a metric is a way of raising, doing training, to help people see their unconscious bias. First of all, to name the elephant that there is, unconscious bias. That work here and make that bias conscious so that we can support each other to work through it. And sometimes, especially in some of those conversations that we're learning the heat goes too high and people check out and they actually become disengaged from the challenge. So the work of leadership and it's not just one person's job is to try to make sure that there's enough heat for long enough that the challenge gets solved public landscape around DEI Julia, so I just have to name that.
Speaker 3:I appreciate your comments, especially around bias and naming.
Speaker 1:I don't even know if it's heat. I think it's like inferno. Is there an inferno stage? Because I feel like it's inferno.
Speaker 2:I mean there was a period there where we weren't using the word equity because that shocked people out of the room. Yeah, when, where? What we are, our tolerance got a little bigger over the years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we've made progress. What I'm struck by, though, is like it's what I hear is an intentionality to make one uncomfortable and to be able to sit with that discomfort for a period of time to make progress toward whatever challenge we're trying to overcome, and that we're all acknowledging. This is hard, this is making us scratchy, or whatever your favorite word is, but we're still, but we acknowledge that where we and so to me, that I think that's part of powerful too is and also to say and listen. This is what we're going to do, these are the metrics we're going to set to know that we're making progress, so that we're not just being hot. To know that we're making progress so that we're not just being hot hot for no reason, but like we're, for that sounds strange, I know, when I said hot for no reason, but you know, that's a different podcast.
Speaker 1:Hot for no reason is a different podcast. That's a different episode, julia, we got to invite you back for that one, but the intentionality to me, is really powerful, because so many organizations are conflict avoidant and it's like, oh, that's really touchy. We can't talk about that. I think, tiffany, your example is perfect. Now, dei, deib and all the incarnations of it. It's like you see companies literally exiting out and putting press releases saying, well, we're never doing this, we're not, we're not doing that anymore. You know, so right it got too hot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, that's exactly what you don't want to have, so there's a role. It's worth mentioning that the behaviors or the opportunities for leadership are different at different levels in the company or community. So it's a responsibility and it's a leadership behavior by somebody in authority to set those metrics and to create holding environments where people can do hard work and feel safe enough to get uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can appreciate that Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, Julia, towards the end of our podcast conversations, we'd like to do a lightning round.
Speaker 1:It's a little fun.
Speaker 3:It's a little fun If you, you know, go with us it sounds fun. We're going to be hot for no reason, for just a couple of minutes, and we just like to have fun by asking our guests a couple of quick questions, and we want you to share the first thing that comes to your mind, can't?
Speaker 1:overthink it. You can't overthink it, julia, you can't overthink it. So let's go.
Speaker 3:Okay, First question we have re-rated the pod to be called ungovernable women. What does ungovernable mean to you? You know?
Speaker 2:it means? What does it mean? It means willing to stand the heat.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's good, I like it.
Speaker 1:I like it. I like it. So, Julia, what is a motto or phrase that best defines your personality or your mindset?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when in doubt, do yoga.
Speaker 3:Are goats involved?
Speaker 2:No, I don't do goats, I don't do like paddleboard.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay, what, tiffany?
Speaker 1:Tiffany.
Speaker 3:I recently did goat yoga no goat. It was an experience. I will say oh you said goats, not ghosts.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, goats, goats, the animals, okay, Even the goat yoga, ghost yoga or goat yoga are both interesting things to me. We told you it was going to get interesting.
Speaker 3:Okay, we told you it was going to get interesting what is the best purchase under 150 bucks you've ever made?
Speaker 2:the ingredients for an amazing fish stew.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 3:I like it. We might need the recipe.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, Julia, this next one requires a little vulnerability.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:What is a secret? Unpopular opinion that you hold Secret and unpopular. Secret and unpopular.
Speaker 2:I don't think people should get married until they're 40.
Speaker 3:We're going to have this. I wish someone had told me that you know what.
Speaker 1:That's pretty amazing. I think turkey for Thanksgiving is trash, was bad, was like, was pretty spicy, but I like this one. I love it. Well, I'm kidding, we gotta expand just for a minute. Is there a particular reason why you think that?
Speaker 2:oh, just it's based on my own experience. I just get super nervous when I hear 20-somethings getting married, because I just know what I got married when I was 24.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you've got some experience with this life experience informing this one.
Speaker 2:I mean this has slipped out of my mouth. When young co-workers say they're getting married, I just have to You're like, don't do it, you have to sit on your hands. Yeah, it's not appreciated.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what I like, that I think this is a good one. This is a good one, tiffany, take us in.
Speaker 3:All right, last one you are accepting a huge award. What is your walk-on song?
Speaker 2:Come Dancing by the Kinks.
Speaker 1:Oh, love that. Yes, we're going to put that on the playlist too, the podcast playlist.
Speaker 2:Love it.
Speaker 1:I love the Kings.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Julia, is there any other parting thought you want to leave with our listeners? We have such a devoted group of listeners who, as I mentioned, who love this kind of career advice and insight. Anything else you would want to share with us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I'm going to share words that were spoken at the funeral of my co-author, ed's Aunt Kathleen. She was a Loretto nun who was a social justice warrior and she said we're not asking you to inform, we're asking that we head in the same direction differently.
Speaker 1:That's so powerful. That is so powerful. Oh, what a beautiful way to close this out. Julia Favors McBride, thank you so much for the gift of your wisdom and your time today. We appreciate you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you both so much, thank you. Thanks for listening to Ungovernable Women. Our producer and editor is Megan King. Our social media manager is Destiny Eicher. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe to our show on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you listen to your pods. Your ratings help other listeners find us. You can follow and DM us on Instagram at ungovernablexwomen, and TikTok at ungovernablexwomen. See you next time, thank you.